German synth veteran Peter Baumann recently released his first solo album since 2016’s ‘Machines Of Desire’ on Bureau B.
In its mysterious but evocative storytelling without words, ‘Nightfall’ is a work that combines the cerebral with the cinematic, shaped by Baumann’s long standing interest in the human condition and how music can create artistic inspiration, relaxation and optimism through its transcendent qualities.
Best known as a member of the classic line-up of TANGERINE DREAM with Edgar Froese and Christopher Franke, Peter Baumann was involved in their imperial Virgin Records era albums ‘Phaedra’, ‘Rubycon’, ‘Ricochet’, ‘Stratosfear’ and ‘Encore’ which exemplified The Berlin School.
Recorded while still in TANGERINE DREAM, Baumann debut solo album ‘Romance ‘76’ comprised of two contrasting suites, the first with strong synth melodies and hypnotic rhythmic backbones while the second half was more experimental and organic featuring female vocals and the Munich Philharmonic Orchestra and Choir.
Photo by Jane Richey
Baumann’s confidence was on a high and after completing work on the 1977 live double album ‘Encore’, he left TANGERINE DREAM and set up his own studio, producing other artists including LEDA, CLUSTER and Conrad Schnitzler. His second solo album ‘Trans Harmonic Nights’ from 1979 was something of an interim record, comprising of shorter instrumental compositions using mysterious melodies and occasional vocoder textures pointing halfway towards conventional pop vocal phrasing.
Signalling a complete departure from TANGERINE DREAM, his third solo album was ‘Repeat Repeat’, an entirely song-based collection co-produced by Robert Palmer that crossed synthesized art funk with Die Neue Deutsche Welle. While the album was a shock to TANGERINE DREAM fans, an even bigger surprise came when Baumann signed to Arista Records in 1984. Employing New Yorker Eli Holland on lead vocals, the resultant Europop flavoured ‘Strangers In The Night’ album included an electronic disco cover of the song made famous by Frank Sinatra; incidentally the music had originally been written by the German orchestra leader Bert Kaempfert under the title ‘Beddy Bye’.
Not long after, Baumann launched his Private Music label; with a roster that included Yanni, Ravi Shankar, Andy Summers, Carlos Alomar, Suzanne Ciani and his former band, the venture was a huge success and later purchased by BMG in 1994. He then founded The Baumann Institute in 2009 “dedicated to exploring the nature of awareness and its relationship to human health and well-being.”
In an insightful career spanning interview, Peter Baumann kindly chatted to ELECTRICITYCLUB.CO.UK from his home in Los Angeles about his life and his motivations.
‘Nightfall’ is your first album since NEULAND with Paul Haslinger in 2019 and your first solo release since ‘Machines Of Desire’ in 2016, how was your approach different from those records?
I’m older! *laughs*
You know, I can’t really say if there was anything different. I work with just what’s coming up… there wasn’t any planning, it’s all very spontaneous. I like to collect sketches and I pull up one of those sketches to develop it a little bit and put it aside, so it’s an organic process with the pieces growing together.
There is this dramatic nocturnal atmosphere that looms throughout ‘Nightfall’? What it very much inspired by the environment you live in now which is very different from Europe? Does the difference of the night where you are inspire you in that way?
No, it was just the mood, it was a slower mood, not uptempo at all. I like albums that have a consistent mood and that’s the mood that turned out for this one.
‘No One Knows’, ‘From A Far Land’ and ‘I’m Sitting Here, Just For A While’ have these haunting piano tones that recall the late Harold Budd? Had you been an admirer of his work?
Yes, I loved his stuff, it was slow and moody and introspective so I liked all of that. The same as the mood of the album is consistent, the titles came up the same way.
Photo by Jane Richey
Do you ever come up with a title first and then write around it? It’s something David Sylvian of JAPAN used to do…
Usually the same way I do sketches, I collect titles and then after the track is halfway developed, I see which title fits to which piece.
There are no pulsing sequences on ‘Nightfall’, but is that Berlin School sound ever something you will ever be inclined to return to?
I don’t feel it particularly right now, but I’ve learnt never to say never. There’s so many associations with it and these days, that’s “a dime a dozen”. I’m probably more interested in melodies and a mood than sequencers.
Are you still using hardware or are you now completely in the box these days?
It’s about 80-90% in the box, the rest is hardware and old style synth. I have all the usual suspects in the box and some outboard gear, a Waldorf STVC vocoder and a Moog Matriarch plus a few others but most of the effects are in the box. What I like about it is so easy to recall and go back to the original setting. The flexibility is just phenomenal, I barely notice I’m doing something mechanical, I can focus completely on the sound and the mood of the track.
Did you keep that Projekt Elektronik modular system you had specially made for you?
OH MY GOODNESS! THAT IS A BLAST FROM THE PAST! THAT’S A MUSUEM PIECE! *laughs*
Photo by Jerome Froese
Is it actually in a museum now then? *laughs*
Maybe! I dunno! *laughs*
I sold it probably 40 years ago to a fellow from Switzerland! I know exactly what was in there and everything you could do on that big modular, you can do today on your cellphone! What I liked about it, you had tactile access to all the frequency, the filter, the envelope, it’s different to do that than in the box… I liked that tactile connection. I have two studios, one in the country and one in the city, they’re identical so I can go back and forth, but with equipment like the Projekt Elektronik modular, you can’t and it didn’t have any recall! It was one time and that was it!
Was that your favourite synthesizer?
Yes, that was my favourite, it had some very custom made aspects to it, the way the patching was set up was custom made, the sequencers were all custom made with steps, not just sequential but also in frequency, so live I could switch the frequency really easy and land on a definite note and not have to fine tune it.
Was there a synthesizer that you didn’t like, one that didn’t meet expectations?
Oh my! I probably went through a few dozen synthesizers in the last decades! I never liked the DX7, I really disliked it, it had a tinny sound, it just wasn’t great. There was one Moog I didn’t like, it was a big polyphonic, the sound just didn’t make it. I loved the small keyboard Oberheim but I never liked the bigger one. It’s a degree of preference, it’s not that I hated any of them, you can always do something with any kind of sound. But you have your gotos and when you run out of ideas, you pick one up that you never use just to see if it inspires you.
Did you get your head around the FM synthesis programming on the DX7?
Not really and that might be the issue… I’m not a nerd in terms of twiddling with it a lot, I just want the sound and the easiest access to shape the sound. I was never into the Synclavier for instance, it has some fantastic sounds but it was just very cumbersome to dig into all the layers it had. I loved the sound but I always used the presets.
You were still a teenager when you joined TANGERINE DREAM, rock ‘n’ roll wasn’t even 20 years old then. You were part of what is seen as the classic line-up that produced ‘Phaedra’ and ‘Rubycon’, why you think the acclaim for those two records has endured, especially with all those boxed sets?
I don’t think you ever know, they were in a particular constellation at a particular time and this is the mystery. You never know why one piece of music or art piece works out and just stays relevant. I would say at the time, it was not anywhere in the mainstream, it wasn’t something that existed among many others. So it wasn’t a fad, it was one of a kind and those things usually stand up a little bit more than if it’s part of a whole group of similar music.
Do you think being in England to record those albums helped your creative mindset?
Oh definitely! When we recorded ‘Phaedra’ at The Manor in Oxford, for me it was like being in ‘The Twilight Zone’. It was just magical the way we worked there, the staff were fantastic. We didn’t leave until the record was done, we never left The Manor. It was just a terrific place, it had 100 years of history and it was timeless. The music is probably influenced by it quite a bit.
The success of those albums meant that you were given opportunities to travel the world. What are your memories of TANGERINE DREAM’s US tour which is documented on ‘Encore’, did this start your love of America and eventually relocating?
Those kind of decisions never happen because of one thing or another. When I split from TANGERINE DREAM, anything I did in Germany would be related to the band. We were known in America, but not that well known so I had much more of an opportunity. I like the culture in America better than in Germany. At the time, there was no reunification, Berlin was an island in the middle of East Germany. I always felt a little constrained… also, I didn’t like the weather! *laughs*
America is just a crazy country, there’s a lot of dynamic and I enjoy the unpredictability. Europe is just more settled, it’s a much more mature culture and that’s wonderful in its own right. But I just enjoy the dynamic and craziness we have over here.
You released your first solo album ‘Romance ’76’ while still in TANGERINE DREAM, now solo records were the norm in the set-up, but had you been feeling constrainedartistically?
Not at all, I recorded ‘Romance ’76’ in our rehearsal room on an 8 track machine that I borrowed from Christoph. It was totally cool that we did our thing. In those days, recording was very different, you didn’t fine tune it the way you do today. There were not as many layers so on ‘Romance ’76’, I used 6 tracks, maybe 7 but it was not as developed. So it has its own atmosphere because it’s not so polished.
When you decided to produce ‘Welcome To Joyland’ by LEDA in 1978, was there a frustrated pop artist waiting to come out?
No, that particular album was just a fun project, I had built a studio in Berlin and this was basically a trial in the studio, it was never meant to be any particular thing. A friend of mine Hans Brandeis was a bass player in a band called EDUCATION FREE and he had a girlfriend who was a singer. So LEDA was like a very spontaneous project just to check the studio out and have some fun.
Does it surprise you people are still finding and talking about ‘Welcome To Joyland’?
You know, few things surprise me in life. I take it just the way it comes and goes, I don’t worry that much.
During this period, you produced ‘Grosses Wasser’ by CLUSTER in 1979, how was that experience working with Roedelius and Moebius?
I loved those guys, they were so cool. They were not like musicians, they were soundmakers and they had an unorthodox way of working in the studio. I had a deal with Egg Records in France who wanted 4 records for the label, so the productions for Conrad Schnitzler, Asmus Tietchens and Roedelius were among them.
What was the motivation to sing and start writing the songs that led to the ‘Repeat Repeat’ album, as opposed to the improvisational instrumentals you were involved with before?
It was just an experiment, there was nothing more behind it, it was just the flavour of the time when I had just moved to New York. Those thoughts and lyrics that are on there like ‘Brain Damage’ and ‘M.A.N. Series Two’, they were a dystopian modern perspective on New York. It was new for me, I experimented with lyrics and that was that.
How did Robert Palmer become the producer to help you realise your song based ambitions on ‘Repeat Repeat’ because back then, it was not an obvious pairing?
We had the same German record company and they played the demos of ‘Repeat Repeat’ to him, he thought they were cool and wanted to be involved. He called and said “I love what you’re doing, I’d love to produce it” so I said “sure”; we worked at Compass Point in The Bahamas and then mixed it in London. I just enjoyed hanging out with Robert, we had a similar mindset and he had big influence in the sound of the album.
Looking back on the ‘Repeat Repeat’ album and its follow-up ‘Strangers In The Night’, after that you appeared to stop releasing your own music and started Private Music. Was being a front man not what you wanted after all?
Again, I never think very much, I just do what happens. With ‘Repeat Repeat’, I realised I was not a really great vocalist and then a producer in America suggested this guy Eli Holland to do lead vocals, so we did ‘Strangers In The Night’. Again, I just had fun doing whatever I do and that’s what we did then.
The record company was a silly story if you will, there was no big thought behind it. I met my wife Alison, we went on vacation in Florida and I had a shoebox full of cassette tapes of little productions I did. I played some of them and she said “I love this”; I said something about maybe doing a record company one day and she said “you absolutely have got to do it!”… and so I did a record company! There was never any grand plan behind it, my whole life has been that way, I just enjoy seeing what comes next and let it happen.
You met up with Edgar Froese before he passed away in early 2015 and there had been talk of you rejoining TANGERINE DREAM?
Edgar wrote me an email just to check in and I wrote back… at the time I had a studio when I was in San Francisco and was playing around. I sent him a couple of tracks and he said “let’s work together”; it wasn’t for TANGERINE DREAM or anything else, just let’s make some noise. I met him in Vienna and we spent some time in the studio. I said I’d make more basic tracks to send to him but then sadly next time, I got a call from his wife Bianca with bad news. So that collaboration never materialised and that’s when I did ‘Machines Of Desire’.
Photo by Jane Richey
What are your favourite works for your long career, whether as an artist, producer or label boss?
What a question! Sometimes you like Chinese food, sometimes Italian food, sometimes Japanese food, I like it all. It depends on the time of day. I think it was all worth doing, I was extraordinarily lucky to be able to do this. Had I started today, it would have been a whole different effort. Playing in a band and then getting to do what I got to do, and doing a record label when you could still do a record label, today it’s awfully tough! It’s been fun to talk to you about it Chi, it’s like travelling down Memory Lane… I mean CLUSTER! I haven’t thought about that record in years! You have given me some very interesting ways to look back on the last 50 years.
It’s all good, I don’t have any favourites and there’s none of them that shouldn’t have happened. Maybe, if there was a little bit of a favourite, one or the other, of course ‘Phaedra’ is a completely different album than ‘Repeat Repeat’ but there are elements of both that I enjoy 🙂
What is next for you?
I dunno, you tell me 😉
As I said before, I just wait and see what happens. I’m going to spend some time in the studio but I have some other interests. I’m writing a book, it’s a philosophical book called ‘Some Days Are Better Than Others’ and it’s my view of the experience of being human.
ELECTRICITYCLUB.CO.UK gives its warmest thanks to Peter Baumann
THE DARK FLOWERS is the dark country project led by Paul Statham.
Best known as a member of B-MOVIE and PEACH but also as a songwriter whose credits include Peter Murphy, Dot Allison, Dido, Kylie Minogue and Rachel Stevens, for THE DARK FLOWERS’ 2014 debut album ‘Radioland’, Statham brought together a group of guest vocalists that not only included his previous collaborators Murphy and Allison but also Jim Kerr from SIMPLE MINDS and Shelly Poole of ALISHA’S ATTIC.
The songs themselves were inspired by Sam Shepard’s ‘Motel Chronicles’, a collection of poems and memoirs depicting the first 40 years of the American playwright’s life. MOJO magazine described it as “a perfect album for a lonely winter night”. Then in 2021 came a standalone Murder Ballads covers EP in ‘Death & Desires’ from which Tom Waits ‘Dead & Lovely’ with vocals from The Anchoress was a highlight.
2025 sees the release of a second album from THE DARK FLOWERS called ‘Indian Summer’ which again is inspired by Sam Shepard, but via ‘Hawk Moon’, the companion volume to ‘Motel Chronicles’. Jim Kerr and Shelly Poole return while the three vocalists who premiered on ‘Death & Desires’, The Anchoress, David J and Gabriella Cilmi also participate.
In a break between shows with B-MOVIE, Paul Statham chatted to ELECTRICITYCLUB.CO.UK about THE DARK FLOWERS and the processes involved in realising the concept.
The music styles you have been involved in have included post-punk, new wave, synth, goth, dance and pop, so what inspired you to start a dark country project?
‘Paris Texas’, the film directed by Wim Wenders, has always been a favourite, with its wide-open landscapes and the strange people that can inhabit these tiny, isolated towns. The screenplay written by Sam Shepard led me in turn to his book ‘Motel Chronicles’, which is short story and prose about that same self-thing. I was reading it whilst listening to a movie soundtrack ‘The Hired Hand’ which was composed on old worn instruments that had been left out in the desert heat, so I had a starting point of combining these 2 sources of words and music.
I was listening to Bon Iver’s first album and thought that would give the project more form. But I realised it would be too ‘normal’ so by adding elements of Brian Eno’s album ‘Another Green World’ (one of my top 3 albums of all time!), it could add strange textures, found sound etc. The resulting album was a hybrid of all these things, a sort of dark folk / country-tinged electronica album!
The first album ‘Radioland’ had a long gestation period which started in 2009 and you called upon vocalists you had worked with before like Peter Murphy, Shelly Poole, Helicopter Girl and Dot Allison… how amenable were they to the idea and did anyone need more persuading than others?
Helicopter Girl required a little coaxing! But Dot Allison was working in a similar frame of mind and Shelly is one of my closest friends so the music I gave them had less experimental elements which I then added later, once the vocals were added. Peter Murphy was different, as we had worked together on many of his albums, but Peter’s lyrics are every personal and spiritual in nature so he sort of just played with words from Shepard’s prose but added these incredibly strange and beautiful wailing backing vocals.
In terms of the creative dynamics with your guest vocalists, are there set roles or does the collaborative process differ with each individual?
Always the same; I chose a small portion of Shepard’s prose that I feel is evocative, either complex or simple, create a musical backing and then send both to the artist. Once I have the vocal returned I’m free to then deconstruct the track and rebuild it.
Did you record vocalists in the same room or did things often have to be remote out of practicality?
From all over the place! Jim Kerr mostly came to me though as we were working together on some of his own material.
Jim Kerr appeared on ‘Radioland’ and also features on the number of songs from ‘Indian Summer’, how did he become to be involved and how is he to work with?
I was introduced to Jim through a mutual friend, and we collaborated on a song ‘Return Of The King’ for his ‘Lost Boy’ solo album. We quickly realised we shared similar music / literary tastes, background and humour so it seemed natural to do more. He is a very intelligent guy, great with words and hugely expressive vocal range so on ‘Radioland’, it was a perfect fit. Since then, I have co-written ‘Kill Or Cure’ with him for SIMPLE MINDS album ‘Big Music’ and co-wrote the band’s last single ‘Your Name In Lights’ with him and Charlie Burchill with more tracks completed. He is always enthusiastic and a very generous person with his time and creativity.
What was the idea behind the 2021 interim EP ‘Death & Desire’ as none of the four songs are duplicated for ‘Indian Summer’?
It was getting too long between albums and Covid came along. I now work as well at Solent University and ICMP London, running songwriting modules so doing a cover version EP was just a stop gap really. I specifically enjoyed ‘Death Valley 69’ with David J from BAUHAUS and LOVE & ROCKETS.
David J sings ‘The Stars Stand In’ on the new album, is he a quite different personality from Peter Murphy?
Yes, very different! He was instantly enthused and has produced an eclectic body of work of his own in the more acoustic / troubadour vein. So, working from Shepard’s prose instantly appealed to him. He had also listened to ‘Radioland’ whilst driving across America’s heartland at night so understood the work well.
Peter Murphy is a one-off, a highly individual person, but also with a dark sense of humour and charisma on tap. We have known each other 40 years now and I was also in his backing band THE 100 MEN for 8 years so had performed on lots of US tours with him. We stopped working together for a long time after I left, but it was great to have co-written ‘Silver Shade’ together after a long time not working with him. His new album of the same name is brilliant.
The new album is much more electronic than its predecessor which was very acoustic, in what ways did you want the sound to be different for ‘Indian Summer’?
Yes, I feel you’re always improving the more you continue to work at something, so my skill set had improved in the 12 years between albums. As you get older, there’s fewer good things happen! But one thing is you start to want your work to reflect what you want to express and less about where does it fit in, you sort of return full circle to why you started making music in the first place. I love electronic music and have my own experimental label Loki Records which THE DARK FLOWERS album will come out on via the lovely people at Cargo Records.
What were your chosen tools for constructing the music for THE DARK FLOWERS and does it differ much from say, your more experimental solo instrumental work?
Yes, by a significant margin. THE DARK FLOWERS songs have a recognisable form, and space has to be made for the vocal, melody and lyrical narrative so the experimental edge sort of works in the margins. In my own releases I love basically fucking up sound and recombining elements. I’m a huge fan of synthesizers and sound modules / effects and create long experimental delay chains and send things back in on themselves. Various magazines have given my albums very good reviews so that’s really important to me!
There are several different vocalists on the ‘Indian Summer’ album including The Anchoress and Gabriella Cilmi, what had you heard from these two talents that made you feel they were suitable for THE DARK FLOWERS?
Well, I go way back with Catherine AD aka The Anchoress and obviously the SIMPLE MINDS connection as she became their keyboard player (after ‘Radioland’ album actually). She has a unique voice, is literary minded and loved the idea of translating prose to song lyric.
Gabriella, I had worked with previously and although best known for her big hit ‘Nothing Sweet About Me’, she is a seriously talented vocalist and her lyrics on her more folk / country related tracks pointed to a storyteller, which is perfect for THE DARK FLOWERS project.
Which are your favourite tracks on songs on ‘Indian Summer’, the ones that give you most satisfaction?
Hmmmmmm… I would say ‘Celebrate You’ featuring Shelly and ‘The Dominant Colour Is Rust’ with Jim.
Will THE DARK FLOWERS ever perform live in the future?
Not in the sense of a revue! With all the different vocalists and of course Jim Kerr and Peter Murphy are not UK residents and have genuinely successful and very busy commitments, so to have them commit to come on and sing 3 songs is a lot.
Saying that, I would love to do a very small show, with maybe vocalists, and they could sing any song from the album. That way, people would be coming to hear the album and not to see their favourite front man perform!
ELECTRICITYCLUB.CO.UK gives its warmest thanks to Paul Statham
Embroiled in anguish, UNIFY SEPARATE have provided their “sanity clause” as they confront an existential crisis that is more than about midlife on the ‘Heavy Meta’ EP.
Having already released two acclaimed albums ‘First Contact’ and ‘Music Since Tomorrow’, ‘Heavy Meta’ builds on the duo’s majestic sense of drama with a deeper and harder sound that swings between self-loathing and self-affirmation, revenge and compassion, and love and regret
Comprising of Andrew Montgomery and Leo Josefsson, their respective heritage of Scottish indie via GENEVA and Swedish synth in the form of LOWE has been the core of their unique stylistic chemistry. Within a deep swoop of influences including MODERAT, DEPECHE MODE, ULTRAVOX, BRONSKI BEAT and RADIOHEAD, ‘Heavy Meta’ blends raw emotive vocals with distorted synths and dynamic machine rhythms.
In their third interview with ELECTRICITYCLUB.CO.UK, UNIFY SEPARATE spoke about the situations that led to this ‘Heavy Meta’…
The title ‘Heavy Meta’ sums up the sound and lyrical themes of this latest EP, what had inspired it?
Leo: I can only speak to what inspired the soundscape and production techniques, but it’s a continuation of the path we’ve been on for a while—just with a darker and deeper outcome. I’ve kept pushing myself to improve every aspect, from music production to sound creation and arrangement. In the past, I felt a bit restricted by trying not to sound like any of my musical house gods, but I’ve let go of that anxiety and allowed it all to flow freely.
Andrew: Lyrically it refers to big personal changes that periodically go on inside of us, sometimes due to external influences or characters, sometimes of our own volition.
Bands often go through an existential crisis, was this happening to you? Has trying to play the Spotify algorithm and maintaining a social media presence detracted from the creation of music as opposed to “content”?
Leo: The challenge of streaming and media presence is definitely something we struggle with—and honestly, we’re not very good at it. We’re not salesmen, except when we’re on stage—then we’re the best salesmen there are. Life is a difficult period. And the current music landscape doesn’t make it any easier.
Andrew: The radical democracy of the early digital era has given way to a stifling level of commercial music industry control that’s not so far removed from the murky era of Morris Levy. But there are enough incredible supporters out there online (the good side of digitalisation) that it keeps you going.
Had playing live more influenced your approach to song dynamics at all?
Leo: It definitely has—especially when we plan our setlists. At times, we’ve felt the need for more uptempo songs to help make the live show more dynamic and driving. It’s a tricky balance, though—building the energy while still leaving the audience wanting more.
Technology can often be a spark to sound, so have there been any new toys to play with at UNIFY SEPARATE HQ?
Leo: Indeed! 🙂 I’m a big fan of analog outboard gear, and I’ve also stepped into the world of modular synthesizers. That’s definitely opened up new tools and ways of creating sounds and rhythmic elements that just wouldn’t have been possible before.
There appears to be fewer guitar derived textures this time round than before, was that a conscious decision?
Leo: Yes, very much so. We’re both more influenced by electronic music than before—Andrew especially. It’s partly my fault that we leaned more toward an ‘indie pop’-influenced direction on our latest album, ‘Music Since Tomorrow’, where we also had the great honor of having Richard Oakes from SUEDE (!) play on two songs. This time around, I felt the need to dive back into the synthetic and electronic world again.
Andrew: Featuring guitar limits what you can do in the live setting where you’re a duo of machines and vocals. Best to play to your existing strengths but find new ways to use them.
You opted for an EP rather than an album for ‘Heavy Meta’, were there creative and practical reasons for this?
Leo: We both felt the need to shorten the timespan between releases, and I have a tendency to spend too much time on the productions. We figured the EP format could be a good way to avoid getting stuck—and it turned out to be just that. It’s helped us keep moving forward instead of dwelling on our music for too long. Right now, we’re working on a new EP called ‘The God Particle’ (you read it here first!), which is taking us on a somewhat different journey—and it feels really exciting.
“Don’t believe everything you think!” you exclaim on ‘DETOX’, it’s a strange world out there now and you’re both old enough to remember when things had been a bit nicer… how are you coping?
Andrew: The lyrics you quote have both personal and macro perspectives. There’s a lot to be mad about out there, but even in the case that we generally agree with something or someone, we shouldn’t always accept all the things that we’re told, though that is especially so from certain quarters. If we keep that in mind as well as the desire to try and be as good as we can to others, and also be kind to ourselves, that can help us through this difficult era. Hope you’re all coping okay x
What prompted the united front to you both providing vocals on ‘DETOX’ and ‘Return To Exile’?
Leo: I see the human voice purely as an instrument, and on those songs, it felt natural to bring in my darker vocal tone to complement Andrew’s amazing choral qualities. I think it turned out pretty well.
Andrew, as a Scot in Sweden, was ‘Return To Exile’ intended as something more personal to you?
Andrew: Actually, the song was one of Leo’s ideas, including the theme. I’m a happily-settled “new Swede” who is nonetheless proud of his Scottish roots.
‘Dark Heaven’ is a good title, what was the idea behind the song and what light can you identify despite all this darkness?
Andrew: Thank you. It’s about pushing your personal boundaries and finding joy in the senses. The light is always, always the love we have for one another.
How did you get ‘Gaslighted’?
Andrew: (Lies down on psychiatrist’s sofa) – By someone who tried to de-legitimise my feelings over being hurt in an egregious way. All is now forgiven if not forgotten.
So who has been making ‘Excuse Excuses’?
Andrew: See immediately above.
You’re playing Amphi 2025 in Cologne this summer, how do you think the ‘Heavy Meta’ songs will go down live?
Leo: We’ve already included ‘DETOX’, ‘Gaslighted’, and ‘Dark Heaven’ in our live setlist, and they’ve gone over really well—the response has been amazing. We’re hoping for, and expecting, nothing less at Amphi.
What is next?
Andrew: Hopefully a lot more music – both recorded and live.
ELECTRICITYCLUB.CO.UK gives its warmest thanks to UNIFY SEPARATE
Comprising of Steve Hovington (vocals + bass), Paul Statham (guitar), Rick Holliday (keyboards), and Graham Boffey (drums), Mansfield quartet B-MOVIE are most often associated with being part of the Some Bizzare stable managed by futurist DJ Stevo Pearce which also included SOFT CELL and THE THE. They had all appeared on the ‘Some Bizarre Album’ compiled by Stevo which also showcased DEPECHE MODE and BLANCMANGE.
Phonogram Records wanted to sign B-MOVIE so Stevo insisted on a 2-for-1 deal which included SOFT CELL. But their trio of singles from that heady period ‘Remembrance Day’, ‘Marilyn Dreams’ and ‘Nowhere Girl’ failed to breakthrough into the UK Top40 while SOFT CELL hit No1 with ‘Tainted Love’ in 1981 and began an outstanding run of a five Top3 singles into 1982. Ultimately Phonogram and Stevo lost interest in B-MOVIE and an album they were working on was shelved.
A fragmented B-MOVIE led by Hovington and Statham signed to Sire Records and released the album ‘Forever Running’ in 1985 but by then, the magic that had sparked major label interest had fizzled out. B-MOVIE quietly disbanded but in 2004, the original quartet reformed. Despite releasing two new albums ‘The Age of Illusion’ and ‘Climate of Fear’, talk always returned to their Some Bizzare period with demand for its imperial trilogy of singles to be made available in the digital era.
Now in 2025, those three singles, their B-sides and tracks recorded between 1981-1982 for an intended long player have been digitised and restored to create the debut “that never was”. Titled ‘Hidden Treasures’, as well as featuring seven previously unreleased recordings plus ‘Remembrance Day’, ‘Marilyn Dreams’ and ‘Nowhere Girl’ on vinyl, the CD version contains 12” versions, B-sides and ‘Moles’ from the ‘Some Bizarre Album’.
Paul Statham chatted to ELECTRICITYCLUB.CO.UK about the release of ‘Hidden Treasures’ and revisited this lost chapter of B-MOVIE…
How does it feel to get this excellent album that was recorded 43 years ago out finally? Were there a lot of hoops to jump through in the politics to get it to this point?
We had almost given up of ever getting the original 3 singles of ‘Remembrance Day’, ‘Marilyn Dreams’ and ‘Nowhere Girl’ on any streaming platform as the no one knew who owned them or if they still existed. It was thanks to the diligence of B-MOVIE manager and long-time fan Andy Woods, that he located them and got them returned to us.
It’s a little disconcerting listening back to how we were back then! We had lots of confidence that’s for sure! It’s of its time and we changed nothing and neither added or taken anything away, so it’s like a document or treasure we’ve found that was hidden away, hence the fitting title!
The ‘Hidden Treasures’ title definitely suits the circumstances that it is being released now, but did you have any working titles during its recording?
Normally it’s a song title that could work as an album title, ‘Beginning To Fade’ would have been appropriate!
Was there much tweaking needed on any of the ‘Hidden Treasures’ tracks or are they basically “sold as seen”?
Sold as seen. The initial master tapes were baked, transferred and we luckily had the stereo mixes of most tracks, I believe the song ‘Crowds’ was remixed though.
I’m assuming most of the ‘Hidden Treasures’ was produced by Mike Thorne, but did his commitments to SOFT CELL prompt getting Steve Brown in to produce ‘Nowhere Girl’? As someone who produced ABC’s first single and would later work with WHAM! and THE CULT, how did you choose him? How did his approaches differ from Mike in the studio?
No, Mike only produced ‘Remembrance Day’ and ‘Marilyn Dreams’, the rest were really demos for the band that Andy Dransfield recorded on 8 track at Studio Playground.
I worked again with Mike Thorne on the Peter Murphy album ‘Holy Smoke’ that Mike produced. That was a much longer and involved process as Peter and myself first spent 2 weeks at Mike’s New York studio then a month in England, so I know Mike’s process is very very meticulous, lots of tracking guitars / keyboards and really thinking it through.
The lovely Steve Brown was a funny, sweet man, who unfortunately passed away way too soon. He worked quickly and intuitively, making decisions on the fly and sticking with them. We only really had one day and a night to record Nowhere Girl after a 48-hour drive from Southern Spain where we had just finished our first European Tour. Very hectic, then straight out the studio at 5am to drive to play a Christmas Eve show at Retford Porterhouse! We had lots of energy back then!
As good as it was, ‘Marilyn Dreams’ was less immediate than ‘Remembrance Day’ or ‘Nowhere Girl’… so looking back, was it the best choice as the single between them? Can you remember what the thinking had been behind the decision?
Yes!! After ‘Remembrance Day’, London Records wanted Mike Thorne to produce ‘Nowhere Girl’ as the follow-up. We convinced him to do ‘Marilyn Dreams’ to the record companies’ horror. We were a little naïve but believed in the song. So, a Sliding Doors moment. On the one hand I’d have loved to have heard how Mike Thorne would have produced ‘Nowhere Girl’, but I sort of know. It would have been more electropop and following on from ‘Remembrance Day’ would have probably gone in the Top 40 and given us the hallowed Top Of The Pops… BUT, we would then never had had the magnificent ‘Nowhere Girl’ 12 inch that is surely the definitive version!
The jagged album opener ‘Citizen Kane’ comes over like a cross between THE TEARDROP EXPLODES and ECHO & THE BUNNYMEN, had that “psychedelic” Liverpool Eric’s scene been an influence on B-MOVIE?
It’s more the source of those 2 bands inspiration. We loved THE DOORS and PINK FLOYD as well as ECHO & THE BUNNYMEN, but our sound was also 4 people with diverse tastes and different levels of musicianship. We never followed a ‘plan’ to get to the top. We were considered very wilful individuals, and we played music for ourselves, often extending songs to 10 minutes long. A classic live performance would have been the Futurama Festival were we really jammed out but went down a storm!
‘Polar Opposites’ is included and it’s a great version although I think the John Peel session just edges it, which in your opinion is the definitive version? There have been several versions recorded, was it just a difficult one to nail down?
The John Peel session, 1000%!!
There are some strange guitar parts on this upcoming version that I wouldn’t have played, and it turns out it was Steve who went back in and played over the track. I’ve no idea why but it was 43 years ago!
‘Ice’ is feisty gem of song, can you remember how it come together and why did it not end up on any of the radio sessions you did at the time?
I think it came later, after the Peel Session and the Richard Skinner session. Again, it was us just playing in rehearsal over Steve’s bass line and lyric. We played it live and it always went down a storm
The arrangement of ‘All Fall Down’ is very different to the 1981 John Peel version?
Again, we played it however we felt it at the time. That was probably our downfall commercially as we had no manager invested in us who would ever come to rehearsals, or a bona fide game plan… Stevo was just involved with SOFT CELL, understandably so as they were No1 here and in America, but there was a window for us if we had focused more, partied less and perhaps listened to other people occasionally!
‘Crowds’ was less post-punk and perhaps more of a melodic electronically styled pop song and not dissimilar from say OMD or A FLOCK OF SEAGULLS, how was the band developing musically at this point?
The arrival of Mike Peden on bass was at the time a good idea. It turned out not to be so and signalled the end of the original line-up. We did on this occasion listen to people, just the wrong people with bad advice so we sacked Graham which to me was the biggest mistake we ever made by far! And this sort of fretless bass playing from Peden and a less driving sound that Steve has when he plays bass (he’s actually a top bass player as well as singer!), I’m not a fan of where we went around 1984 onwards
Based on what has been documented on the ‘Remembrance Days’, ‘Radio Days’ and ‘BBC Radio Sessions 1981-84’ CDs, the band were mightily prolific during this period, how would you describe the band’s attitude and drive at this point?
With Martin Smedley on bass and myself playing guitar and keyboards, we formed a B-MOVIE version 2. Steve, Martin and I were re-energised as Mart was a great player and had a real energy. Although we went through other band members like bloody SPINAL TAP. Seymour Stein signed us to Sire. We met Bill Siddons, THE DOORS old manager, as well as Rod Stewart’s manager Arnold Stiefel who told us the Sire album was not up to scratch, he would re-negotiate a new deal (which he was entirely capable of doing) but did we listen? Nope, we went with John Hartman who managed Ringo Starr cos he had a fridge full of beer and had pizzas delivered nightly as we crashed at his LA pad. Turned out it wasn’t even his house, Seymour went ballistic, yelling “that guy still thinks records are played at 78rpm!”…. yep, we failed to notice the gift horse, let alone its mouth.
Photo by Peter Ashworth
Is the track listing and running order of ‘Hidden Treasures’ what was intended back in the day or a retrospective selection?
Retrospective. Steve and Andy have been very involved in this, thankfully. I’ve been a little busy of late working with SIMPLE MINDS and a new DARK FLOWERS album plus lots of other things so it’s really down to their tenacity that this album is seeing the light of day
The CD contains bonus tracks in the 12 inch versions and B-sides from the period plus ‘Moles’ from the ‘Some Bizzare Album’, was there any thought to releasing these as part of a double vinyl package or is this something you might be keeping in reserve for Record Store Day?
Ha ha well you never know! There is another album coming out, focusing on the Covid Years! That’s all I’m saying!
How close did what is now ‘Hidden Treasures’ come to being released as the debut B-MOVIE album back in the day, or was it more or less shelved after ‘Nowhere Girl’ failed to get into the Top40?
Shelved. The music industry can be very unforgiving in a short space of time. Stevo wound everyone up but seeing as both SOFT CELL and THE THE had leverage, it was always going to be us who suffered the fall out of his many physical and mental fights with industry bosses. I don’t blame him, they deserved it, and he was a genuine innovator with real passion, but ultimately we paid the price.
As 1982 progressed, there were the inevitable tensions and the band fragmented after the ‘Hidden Treasures’ recordings, are you able to talk about what happened?
As said earlier, influences turned our heads in thinking that a new drummer would somehow aid the new ‘muso’ sound that Mike Peden’s professional session player style required while Rick met Cindy Ecstasy and had SIX SED RED in his mind. I was never involved in the early songwriting so my own position was marginalised, this situation changed after a reset and Steve and myself collaborated on the Sire album ‘Forever Running’ on a lot of the songs,
But then financial reality kicked in and after a revolving door of band members, it was down to Steve and myself to finally admit it had run out of steam. Steve formed ONE and I went to work with Peter Murphy as initially his keyboard player and second guitarist but co-wrote ‘All Night Long’ and ‘Indigo Eyes’ which helped the parent album ‘Love Hysteria’ reach No1 in the Alternative Rock charts prior to the success of follow-up album ‘Deep’.
Most of these songs are previously unreleased and didn’t feature on what eventually became the official B-MOVIE debut album ‘Forever Running’ in 1985… do you think in hindsight you should have carried these songs over to that or did you just want a clean state, for better or worse?
It was necessary to see the trio of Steve, Martin and myself as a new entity. We did a great Kid Jenson session with the 3 of us, I played guitar and keys, Mart played bass and saxophone and Steve sang brilliantly and for a time we felt re energised so again a radio session sounded much more brutal and punky than the eventual album which was watered down by the producer Stephen Stuart Short (again sadly passed away) and after that we all felt a little disillusioned
‘Hidden Treasures’ is equal to the debut albums by your contemporaries TALK TALK, BLANCMANGE and CHINA CRISIS; now this is imagining a “what if?” scenario but if ‘Nowhere Girl’ had been in the Top20 and the album had come out in Autumn 1982, what do think B-MOVIE’s career trajectory might have been?
That’s very kind of you, and yes I think we would have made a classic first album, it would have been spiky and experimental; but I still feel the band would have split after that album, just because we were growing as people and we needed to be able to express ourselves individually.
Do you have any particular favourite track or memory from ‘Hidden Treasures’?
Well, it was a very long time ago and I’ve made a lot of good memories post then. A lot of it I can’t really recall, we liked a drink and often would ferociously do that before recording. I loved the recording of ‘Remembrance Day’ at Scorpio Sound at the top of Tottenham Court Road with Mike Thorne. We spent a lot of time on the tracking of multiple guitar parts and we had Rick playing fantastic piano underneath the track. Also Steve and Graham laid down a fabulous beat and Mike supplied a producer sheen over everything which was extraordinary to what we had previously ever recorded. And I had my first McDonalds which is still there!!
B-MOVIE are playing shows to coincide with the release of ‘Hidden Treasures’, what can people expect, will you be performing the whole album plus the B-sides like ‘Institution Walls’ and ‘Scare Some Life Into Me’?
We have been playing those songs in the set anyway, way before this. We all have different tastes in the band, so we listen to each other when compiling a set list. I’m always pushing for new songs in the set and there will be a few, but overall we tend to look backwards and that is why the set is about 80% of the classic period, but we will be playing some surprise songs from ‘Hidden Treasures’ for sure!
Stevo was not a shy boy in really saying something about how much he hated “Fakkin’ BANANARAMA”, so I think it’s quite amusing that you and Rick ended up writing songs for them…
Ha, I had a ball with Keren and Sara. I think Rick had a song covered by them but I wrote 3 songs with them and those girls were mega fun, drank like mad with wicked senses of humour!
ELECTRICITYCLUB.CO.UK gives its grateful thanks to Paul Statham
Additional thanks to Andy Woods at Astradyne Management
Having ended 2024 opening for popular American indie band VAMPIRE WEEKEND at London’s Brixton Academy plus their usual seasonal appearances at The Cavern in Liverpool, 2025 sees CHINA CRISIS busier than ever on the live circuit.
Gary Daly and Eddie Lundon started CHINA CRISIS in 1981; signing to Inevitable Records who launched the careers of WAH! And DEAD OR ALIVE, their debut single ‘African & White’ was championed by John Peel. CHINA CRISIS were picked up by Virgin Records and on the release their first album ‘Difficult Shapes & Passive Rhythms, Some People Think It’s Fun To Entertain’ in 1982, the pair were opening for SIMPLE MINDS with the profile helping to achieve their Top20 breakthrough ‘Christian’.
The second CHINA CRISIS album ‘Working With Fire & Steel – Possible Pop Songs Volume 2’ produced by Mike Howlett spawned their biggest hit single ‘Wishful Thinking’ in 1984. But a fresh approach the following year saw their third album ‘Flaunt The Imperfection’ produced by Walter Becker of STEELY DAN fame. With the subsequent tour featuring what is often considered the classic Chinas line-up of Daly and Lundon with Gazza Johnson on bass, the late Kevin Wilkinson on drums and Brian McNeill on keyboards, this most successful of the CHINA CRISIS long players celebrates its 40th Anniversary in 2025.
With show formats ranging from synthpop quartet to full 9 piece band, today the live nucleus includes keyboard player Jack Hymers and saxophonist Eric Animan; the pair were involved in the recent reworks collection ‘China Greatness’ issued on independent label Last Night From Glasgow. It took CHINA CRISIS back into the Top10 of the UK album chart for the first time since 1985.
ELECTRICITYCLUB.CO.UK had a long entertaining chat with Gary Daly over a game of Vintage Synth Trumps about the workings of CHINA CRISIS through the years and much more…
The first card is a Roland SH-3a…
Oh gosh, I know nothing about that AT ALL! I didn’t know it existed!
It is a rare one, but I saw a synth that you used from the Roland family on your solo album ‘Gone From Here’, the RS-202 String Machine…
That belongs to my friend Chris Barlow from Manchester, he would have brought that to the session and known his way around it. It was great, we had David Berger who was the engineer and also the drummer in a band called OUTFIT, he’s Swiss-French and lives in Liverpool.
What we were trying to do was recreate the Bowie / Fripp / Eno thing. So David would be engineering and sort of messing the sound as we went along, then Chris who knew the equipment inside out and there was me trying to come up with the lines and melodies to the song. It was a lovely way of working, it was very productive because we knew what headspace we were in, so it was “let him get on with this, you get on with that and I get on with this”, it really does free you up if you work as a team with synthesizers.
You said a few years ago that one of the early influences on CHINA CRISIS was MAGAZINE and their keyboardist Dave Formula had a Roland RS-505 which superseded theRS-202…
I would have seen Dave playing it! I would have seen them a lot… I originally saw them at the De Montford Hall, then The Empire. It was always with John McGeoch on guitar, Barry Adamson on bass, I thought they were amazing, there was something about them. I’ve just got the MAGAZINE boxed set for Christmas.
I’d listened to a lot of prog rock and my favourite ones were the keyboard-based bands like YES… although they are not considered “a keyboard band”, I consider them a keyboard band because of Rick Wakeman. I liked ELP and even HAWKWIND as they were a bit sonically synthesized. So when I moved to new wave, that’s what helped because there was the likes of MAGAZINE who were a bit rocky and a bit proggy, but it was new enough for me to go “oh, that’s not what I’ve been listening to, it’s almost punk”.
Around that time, everyone was using synths differently. There was SIMPLE MINDS’ Mick MacNeil, Vini Reilly in THE DURUTTI COLUMN along his guitars, OMD, THE HUMAN LEAGUE, HEAVEN 17, all these people I suspect had no formal training and were all self-taught, inspired by KRAFTWERK and all of that. It became that we could do it as well.
It’s interesting to look back now that all these groups were lumped in together as “synthesizer bands” but who all sounded so different, which perhaps isn’t so much the case now… so you’ve mentioned John McGeoch, Dave Formula and Barry Adamson, so did you like VISAGE?
I did, I bought the records when they came out and I was so excited about it. But I was originally put off for a little bit by the New Romantic thing, I didn’t really like seeing members of MAGAZINE in there, I wanted them to be completely MAGAZINE…
So you wanted them to do another ‘Sweetheart Contact’! *laughs*
Oh my god, absolutely!
What about Midge Ure and Steve Strange’s involvement in VISAGE?
I wasn’t too keen on Midge Ure at the time, only because he seemed a gun for hire, I knew of SLIK and RICH KIDS so I was like “What the hell?”; Midge was a bit of a “Mexican flea”, jumping from one act to another… obviously Midge is amazing and the sound of VISAGE.
D’ya know what? We actually met Steve Strange about 12 years ago, we did this gig with him at the O2 and he had to share a dressing room with us! We had a few people in the band then who were quite badly behaved with various stimulants and what not! And that poor guy Steve is trying to recover from all manner of addictions and our band are bouncing off the walls before even going on stage! *laughs*
Steve seemed really lovely, I wish I’d met him before and it would have been nice to chat, we did a tribute gig to him in Port Talbot with all these friends of his after he’d passed. He was like one of those little figures, there he was in the video to ‘Ashes To Ashes’, that was an amazing song and put Bowie totally in the ball park of new wave. But the fact that Steve was there walking on the beach with him in that weird video effect, it made you think “oh, he’s not just a Blitz Kid”!
The thing is, in the North, we had a very negative view of that whole New Romantic thing, we thought “why would you do that in front of your music?” without realising you could do anything. We weren’t brought up in families like that where you were encouraged to be as individual as possible or to express yourself as much as you want, with synthesizers or without. Ours was big working class families, Eddie was one of 10, I was one of 8! EVERYONE went to work, the fact that me and Ed ditched our jobs at 17 was AN OUTRAGE because everyone went to work, but we stayed at home and tried to come up with these songs all that time.
Another card, this one is the Roland Jupiter 6…
Oh, that I don’t know! I’ve had two Jupiter 8s, one I owned twice in that I sold it and then bought it back and sold it!
The Korg Polysix was your first polyphonic synth but was it a bit of a revelation once you upgraded to a Jupiter 8?
The Jupiter 8 is my favourite synth, I would kill to have one of those again. Mark Phythian who mixed the last couple of CHINA CRISIS albums and my solo album, he was our tea boy during ‘Working With Fire & Steel’ and then goes on to win 3 Grammys! These are in his studio room at his terrace house in Liverpool where he’s got a Jupiter 8 but his isn’t working, it’s faulty… that instrument, the big thing about it was we could sequence it with the drum machine. So we could trigger it. You could imagine, all of a sudden, I was arpeggiating all the basslines in different kind of ways, it sounded very convincing, that we knew what we were doing but really, we weren’t! *laughs*
So was the sequencing at the start of the ‘Working With Fire & Steel’ song, was that done by triggering the Jupiter?
Possibly, it sounds like it would have… I think that wasn’t me sequencing that, the producer Mike Howlett did that later, triggering it via the gate through the desk, I think he might have done it like that.
You’d mentioned Mark Phythian and his Grammys, but you’ve had a habit of working with young producers who go onto big things, like Gil Norton who did half of your first album?
He was our original engineer who would have introduced us to the 8 track at Amazon Studios in Kirkby and then to the 16 track. Working with Gil was so enlightening and fantastic. For all our inexperience, Gil would set the desk up and he knew we’d been working with the Portastudio for a few years, so we knew about slowing tape down, speeding it up, turning it over, reversing it, what you could do with delays, how you could stereo them… so Gil would be more than happy to have us go in with the bare pickings of a tune like the 4 tracks of our Portastudio and spend the whole day coming up with stuff. That doesn’t happen like that, so he was happy to set it up and let us get on with it while he went to have a cup of tea. Then he’s come back in, see what we’d been doing and get it to tape.
With the Portastudio, because you only had 4 tracks, you had to make decisions about what to keep and what to lose and what to bounce. So when we got onto the 8 track and then the 16 track, we knew how to do that with Gil. The great thing with Gil was that he taught us; so if he said we should bounce this with that, then it freed up another 4 tracks. So that meant you had to commit to the sound you were making, because it was going to be there at the finished mix. So by the time you go to the end of your recording, there was very little that you had to do because you had been doing it as you went along.
It was funny how Gil became so successful, working with bands like THE PIXIES and FOO FIGHTERS, I was like, that’s not the Gil I knew, the Gil I knew was very unassuming and I don’t remember him wanting an amazing career, it was like he was happy just to be in Kirkby and doing what we were doing. The clientele that came in ranged from SAD CAFÉ to Ken Dodd to ECHO & THE BUNNYMEN, that was the centre of our universe really. We only went away because we were in a band and working with other producers, but I always thought Gil would stay there and become the chief guy.
So Gil co-produced the second “Entertainment” side of ‘Difficult Shapes & Passive Rhythms’, had that been the intention to keep it 8 track, because the impression I get from reading between the lines was that the more sophisticated “Difficult” first side and particularly the sessions produced by Steve Levine weren’t that smooth?
No, it wasn’t great at all… it was great working with Steve, he’s lovely guy but we felt like he was… what we heard coming out of the speakers, we weren’t entirely happy with really. He was sort of getting a bit too involved, he was playing us too many of his ideas and committing them to tape… we were like “What are you doing? That’s not your job! This is OUR track and this is OUR job!”
He was committed to recording the rest of the album, so me and Ed walked out a bit unawares that he’d been booked to the whole album and a contract had been signed, that’s money and people’s wages and everything! And we’re just going “Oh, we’ve tried a couple of weekends with him, we don’t like him, we’ll do it ourselves! See ya!”, Virgin must have thought “WHO THE F*CK ARE THESE KIDS? WALKING ON STEVE LEVINE, WALKING OUT ON PETE WALSH?” *laughs*
What happened was, we OK’ed him to mix what we’d done with him, so three tracks, one was a version of ‘No Ordinary Lover’ which we went “no, that’s not happening”! The other two ‘Seven Sports For All’ and ‘Feel To Be Driven Away’, we thought “oh they are quite good actually, he’s done a great job there”; and I think had he done it all, it most probably would have been a very successful record actually! *laughs*
Having said that, my experience of working with Pete Walsh and the three tracks he did (he did four but one didn’t make it), I thought he was the best on that record, he could have done it all, it would have been an incredible record. Oh, you want to see the track sheets for ‘Christian’, there’s nothing on it, there’s literally NOTHING on it, and that’s him! Pete, he knew! He was so great!
They’re all great these producers, honest to god, every one of them know their job… ok Steve overstepped it a little bit but only a little bit, they all of them kept exactly what we’d done of the demos and then elaborated on them or supplemented or replaced, but they all did it in such a way where they were like “whatever these guys played to the record company, they must have liked it, we’ve got to keep that ingredient”.
Even when Walter Becker was like “Gary, you can’t play… not the kind of playing I know”, he still made sure that he got every single thing I’d done on the demo onto the tracks before we worked with anybody else. They were all like that. With Clive Langer and Alan Winstanley, even though by then we had Brian McNeill on keyboards, he wouldn’t have played on my demos for ‘Arizona Sky’ or the tracks off ‘What Price Paradise’. So when we went in, I would have done mine little bits and Brian would have recreated them. It’s a great thing that method of production, holding onto the essential thing. I suspect they didn’t do that with FRANKIE GOES TO HOLLYWOOD*laughs*
The next card is a Roland SH-101…
Ah yes! I would have worked with that, I can’t quite remember on what, but we would have had one, although not for long. Gazza most probably would have had something to do with that. I didn’t like it when they started doing like faders and quality of the plastic casing felt a bit… it wasn’t as robust as the SH-09 or the Yamaha CS-10 which were solid little things that had a weightiness to them. The SH-101, that could almost be “oh, we did this on a 3D printer!” *laughs*
I remember in your second Smash Hits interview that you’d said you felt sort of obliged to keep up with the technology and were buying lots of equipment but then regretted it, did you ever feel the pressure as a band to keep up technologically?
No, because by the time Brian McNeill had taken over on keys, it was him who was in charge of whatever we needed and I just had what I had at home to do my demos on. Brian had a rack mount of DX-7s, about 9 or 10 of them, he would have used them on CHINA CRISIS for brass and this and that, I wouldn’t have gone anywhere near that. Sequencers, I wouldn’t have gone anywhere near them, anything that was digitally programmed, I wouldn’t have gone anywhere near it.
If I worked on the DX-7 which I had and the DX-7 II, say I went into the algorithm, I didn’t know what I was doing so then I would say to Gazza to teach me how to save stuff, he understood it a bit more. I was one of those guys who when I got something out of the box, I discarded the manual whereas Gazza and Brian didn’t, they would sit and get their heads around it. I was always intuitive, as in I liked to get involved and hear it and feel it, as opposed to read how to do it. I’ve never read how to do anything, I left school and I wasn’t entered for any exams at all because my thing was not to open the book.
Another card, it’s the MicroMoog… did you ever own a Moog?
No, but Brian did, he’s got the proper Minimoogs. This was when they started making them more plastic. We did have a Moog in Amazon, it was the one Gary Numan used…
Oh, the Polymoog?
Yes, it was beautiful. It was in the studio and it wasn’t ours but when we went in, we always used that, it was fantastic. It was warm and rich, I saw Gary Numan with it and I was like “YEAH! THIS IS IT!”
What have you been listening to lately?
I’ve just been listening to some old live tapes, CHINA CRISIS live in the USA, OH MY GOD! F*CKING HELL! It’s such a rubbish recording, it even has all the tech credits at the end, y’know “A Star Systems production by Ray Skidberry, mix engineer Kevin Clark…”, but it sounds like dogsh*t! It hasn’t been mixed at all! But it’s always interesting hearing a little bit of them *laughs*
Something much better I’ve also been listening to is this ‘Shanghai’ 12 inch single by Albert Au released on EMI Hong Kong, the B-side of this is ‘Black Man Ray’ in Cantonese; it’s lovely y’know, in the middle he uses steel drums… we got it at the time, it’s so fun. Everywhere I go, if I come across a record shop, I always go in it… the other day at a gaff that had a café near where we were playing, I got the ‘Black Man Ray’ 12” for a fiver… ok, I HAVE obviously got it but you can never have too many copies of ‘Black Man Ray’ *laughs*
Next card is the Oberheim OB-Xa, was that a synth you worked with?
That’s the ‘Flaunt The Imperfection’ era, I really don’t know how we ended up with it. It might have been something to do with SIMPLE MINDS and Mick MacNeil. I remember for the life of us that we couldn’t get to grips with it, not like we did with the Poly 6, the Jupiter 8, the SH09 and the Yamaha CS10, they were magic really, I completely got engrossed with them.
The Oberheim’s sounds were incredibly rich but it wasn’t completely user friendly, it didn’t have that arpeggio thing which the Jupiter8 had, which was gold for me… I wasn’t a musician as such so even up to ‘Arizona Sky’ and stuff, I was still using drum machine to trigger the arpeggiator and then use the echo unit to get that wondering motoring kind of sequencer effects.
The Oberheim would have been the melody line on ‘Bigger The Punch I’m Feeling’, Walker Becker would get me and Eddie to all the parts we’d done on the demos with all the sounds we’d used, then that would be it and Nick Magnus would be involved to bring in chords and getting sounds quickly. We weren’t like that at all, our approach was a lot more organic and painstaking. And then… it fell out the back of a van outside The Ritz in Manchester!! *roars of laughter*
That was in 1989, ACCIDENTALLY ON PURPOSE to get the f*cking insurance on it!!! We were touring ‘Diary Of A Hollow Horse’, things were tight and management had sort of hinted “do you really need that? We don’t need it, could it fall out of the lorry!”… Hahahahaha! I WASN’T personally involved in that deviation but what a mental thing to do! Smash a synth to get the money! It shows you where we were at, mentally with each other, with the record company, with management, everything was just going *******!!!
But that’s the kind of band we were! You’ve got to remember me and Eddie were from Kirkby, we’d grown up in big families and all our friends, nobody had anything and you wouldn’t be completely light fingered but you’d by hook or by crook, you’d make stuff happen, do you know what I mean? Amazon Studios, me and Eddie would bunk in through the window in the night with our Portastudio and mic to record the piano! Out of necessity, you would!
You recently got back into the album charts with ‘China Greatness’, what was it like revisiting the back catalogue to select inclusions, particular the “lost” jewel ‘It’s Never Too Late’?
Once we saw people doing that orchestrations thing like OMD at the Liverpool Philharmonic Hall, people were coming up to us and saying “your music could be amazing like that” but we were like “yeah, it would but it’s never gonna happen!”. So we were of a mind and what happened was a guy Steve Hammonds who was in charge of all the CHINA CRISIS deluxe editions, I said to him “if I wanted to get hold of our masters, could you get them for us to work on?” and he got back to me and said “yes, tell us what do you want”.
So me and Eddie chose 7 songs each, we wanted ones we really liked and we had to include some of the singles. It took 3 days to send the files because they were so big and hi-res. I went through these with Dave Berger who worked on my solo album and you’ve got to remember I’ve not heard these since we recorded them and it WAS a moment. Then we gave Jack carte blanche to do whatever he wanted. We tried to use the strings from our 40th Anniversary concert because we’d recorded them but had to replace them because they were out of tune which always happens when it’s a live thing. So Eric transcribed the new brass parts that Jack had done. ‘China Greatness’ is literally all Jack’s and Mark Phythian’s work. We might have made a couple of suggestions but not much at all.
So had ‘It’s Never Too Late’ always been preying on your mind, that it was shelved for ‘Working With Fire & Steel’ and then when it finally came out, it was tucked away on the bonus 12” of ‘Black Man Ray’ so wasn’t really heard by many people, even fans?
That was just bad management really… I wrote that song on guitar and possibly one of the first songs I ever wrote on guitar because I couldn’t play guitar. At the time, I didn’t think much of it, I thought it was a little bit wet but it’s quite lovely really, I think it is a bit special in a pop way, it’s got that thing of what CHINA CRISIS had. We had all these lovely melodies and lines that would introduce the song like on ‘Wishful Thinking’, every one of our songs (almost) has an introductory line that catches your attention doesn’t it? Same with ‘It’s Never Too Late’.
Yes, it was us who made the decision to drop it, but someone should have took us to one side and said “That song is very much like the song we think will be the big single off the album, we should really keep hold of that because you are going to want a follow-up”! But we f*cking followed it up with ‘Hanna Hanna’ that was NOTHING like ‘Wishful Thinking’ and people were listening going “we don’t even know what group that is, you don’t sound like that other song, different singer, different everything!”
I remember ‘It’s Never Too Late’ was never even on the sleeve tracklisting or the label of the ‘Black Man Ray’ bonus 12”, there was just this sticker. I remember when I heard it, I thought it was a great song but to be fair, I can understand why it wasn’t included on the ‘Working With Fire & Steel’ album…
Yeah, because some of the songs already on the album like ‘Here Come A Raincloud’ and ‘The Soul Awakening’ were more what we wanted to be… ‘The Soul Awakening’ to me was like ‘Julie With…’ from ‘Before & After Science’ by Brian Eno, we were trying to be bit like that. ‘Here Come A Raincloud’ was beautiful, it was a reaction what was going on, the strikes, the miners, a lot of unemployment and stuff that wasn’t great. We were going home to that from our lovely lives in the Roosevelt Hotel in LA with Iggy Pop in the swimming pool, then all of a sudden in Kirkby, all the factories are closing down, the police are battling with miners, oh my god! So ‘Here Come A Raincloud’ when you hear it on the John Peel session, I’d written it on bass guitar…
That ties in nicely with my next question as there’s ‘The Complete Sessions 1982-1983’ which features CHINA CRISIS recordings for the John Peel show and released by Last Night From Glasgow… this isn’t doing down the album version but I actually feel the John Peel session recording of ‘Here Come A Raincloud’ is better, the overdriven drum machine just gives it that extra eerie tension which fits the lyrics…
Yeah…
…the John Peel version of ‘This Occupation’ is particularly interesting because it’s full-on synthpop! What’s the drum machine you are using?
That’s a Roland TR808 triggering the bass synth, it was us trying to get a bit A CERTAIN RATIO and ABC, it was all getting a bit funky and we were quite keen on doing that because we loved Bowie’s ‘Young Americans’ and that kind of thing… the fact were doing it all with synths was what we were involved with, that was just a natural thing to happen. But lots of people were making a racket then like CABARET VOLTAIRE and all these people, I can remember listening to all that thinking they were great with the solidity of what they were doing, it was forceful and solid with great sounds, but they lacked songs and melody.
We were so involved with melody and when we were out on the road, we would have mixtapes that would have everyone on it, songs like ‘Wichita Lineman’ to THE BEE GEES to Dusty Springfield, Dionne Warwick, all these great songs… we didn’t have any snobbery in our band, there’s so much music out there.
You sent me a photo of your Boss Doctor Rhythm drum machine, was that a bit of a revelation when you got that?
Yeah, ‘African & White’, we wrote that around that drum machine. We didn’t know how to programme it so we were just hitting stuff and pressing play. One morning we pressed play and it did this “tsk-tsk-tsk, tsk-tsk” and straight away I picked up the bass and did that “boom-boom-boom-boom, boom”, its f*cking Motown, all the music we’d grown up with! Then Eddie did that echoing guitar sound, although he never replicates that live and I don’t sing it the octave down with the high octave… I often think, we should be trying to do it to see if people will respond. It’s difficult because music mutates over time, especially live.
Talking of live, 2025 sees the 40th Anniversary of ‘Flaunt The Imperfection’…
What, Walter Becker’s debut solo album? *laughs*
What are you favourite memories of making this record?
I must admit, the actual making of it, I had such a lovely time and my roles had changed so much. What you have to remember is we’d done two albums, we’d had chart success, Top10, we’d lived and toured, stuff like that… so we were really not wanting to see each other again. Eddie and Gazza were working together, I was working on my own. That only lasted a few weeks but it would have felt like a long time. But we’d written ‘Black Man Ray’, ‘Bigger The Punch I’m Feeling’ and stuff, y’know…
Once Walter was involved, I was neither here nor there… I was resigned to the fact that I was in “a band” now, it’s not me and Eddie anymore with Gazza, Kevin and Walter being this incredible rhythm section, making what me and Ed had done really sound amazing. But at the same time, I was still “this isn’t how I’d have it” but I was happy to go along with it. That’s why it’s not my favourite CHINA CRISIS album, it’s like my third favourite but I’m not even sure it’s that! *laughs*
But it was such a happy time for us because Kevin rejoined the band, Walter so lovely and really enjoyed being with us… I think we reminded him of STEELY DAN when they had Skunk Baxter and all these people in, having success with ‘Rikki Don’t Lose That Number’ so he slotted right in.
I had such a great time singing for him, he thought my lyrics were genius and he’s actually in print saying that, he thought ‘Black Man Ray’ was like THE BEATLES… I was just stoned all the time and he was very happy for me to be like that. We’d sing in the evening and it was very meticulous, lots of tracking and lots of takes but I was just having a laugh. So when he was telling me to do things and repeatedly do it, I was like yeah, not a problem. And when they were comping and all that, I could have a smoke and then come back in *laughs*
It really was a great time for us, so I have very fond memories of the album even though I don’t think it’s the best album. I can see WHY people think it’s the best album because it’s got that sonic thing to it, a cohesion that makes it. But I’m of a mind that if you really want to hear CHINA CRISIS and US playing and US performing, then that’s ‘Working With Fire & Steel’. That’s because that is me and Ed, Gazza and Kev have just joined us, there’s no session keyboard players, everything you hear is me with a bit of Ed. But I do think ‘Flaunt The Imperfection’ is like Walter’s solo album but we were the writers for it and he used our band but with his ideas *laughs*
With the Flaunt The Imperfection’ tour, it was like you were finally enjoying playing live for first time because I’d seen you at the London Lyceum in 1983 and you weren’t very good then…
Yeah, there was no stage presence and no stage craft in 1983, because we weren’t particularly interested in that. I certainly didn’t want to stand up in front of people, there was a lot of pressure on us to become a band. Everyone else was enjoying being in a band but I wanted be at home with my Portastudio and Jupiter 8, I was generally the only one who ever turned up for albums with a finished demo. I might get Eddie or Gazza round to do a bit but mostly everyone was happy to just elevate the band thing.
My favourite CHINA CRISIS album is ‘Working With Fire & Steel’, I do like ‘Flaunt The Imperfection’ but it is music of its time which was more Americanised, more FM radio-friendly with more live playing… but the album of yours which despite its highlights that I’ve never got on with as a whole is ‘What Price Paradise’…
What happened with ‘What Price Paradise’ was we got a residential rehearsal place and then made the songs. Y’know, I can’t stand the sound of that album… quintessentially the drums were the wrong sound and they were used for all of it. I was like, you can’t fix it if you’ve used it for all of it! Again, we got into a position where it’s moving at such a pace, it wasn’t me and Eddie anymore and more so once we’d got to ‘What Price Paradise’.
Of course, Brian McNeill had joined as the keyboard player and happy to be involved. So even though I would arrive with ‘Arizona Sky’, it would be completely redone sonic wise. I was resigned to it being “this is the band” and not being about my little demo as great as that sounds… I feel the band went a bit “blokey” on ‘What Price Paradise’…
I’d never thought of it like that before but it makes sense and I’ll try and use an analogy… it’s like those two NEW ORDER albums without Gillian Gilbert, they’re a bit rock and not that good yet when she’s back on ‘Music Complete’, some of the old magic reappears. You know yourself that it’s often the chemistry of the people you have that makes a band successful rather than musicianship or contribution… I seem to remember from reading the deluxe reissue booklet notes you weren’t that keen on the live drummer you had for the ‘Working With Fire & Steel’ tour?
Oh Traxie O’Toole, he went on to do quite well actually and ended up playing for Steve Hackett who was in GENESIS. But for us, he was f*cking shocking man! He just couldn’t help himself, he paid no attention to what Kevin had done or was on the tracks, but he couldn’t restrain himself, he’d be doing proper jazz fills and stuff inappropriately, in the wrong place in the wrong song *laughs*
He sounds like the live drummer that DEPECHE MODE have now! *laughs*
Yeah!
OK, next card is an Octave Cat… you had one and it was supposed to be an ARP Odyssey copy but with knobs instead of sliders, was it ever any good?
Oh yeah! It felt a bit cheapskate, it just wasn’t made very well. We used it on a memorable occasion when we were playing Kirklands in Liverpool 1981 for the release of ‘African & White. We did three Mondays as a kind of residency, first Monday hardly anyone come, second Monday f*cking mobbed, third Monday hardly anyone come. It was me, Ed and Dave Reilly on drums while we had backing tracks on the Portastudio. At one of the gigs I remember, I played a topline on the Cat and managed to detune the oscillator! I couldn’t f*cking get it back so I had to turn the volume off and mimed to look like I was doing something with the actual music everyone was hearing! *laughs*
So not a great synth?
No, I think we gave it away! It didn’t make an appearance on any record! You sort of fall in love with what you are working with which is why guitarists have their favourite guitars. Keyboards have their particular sound.
So there’s a 10th anniversary reissue of ‘Autumn In The Neighbourhood’ as a vinyl LP coming as well which will see it more widely available?
The only reason it’s happening is to get it in the shops so that people around the world can get it. I won’t be keen to make it available for too long, I do like having ownership of that record and I want to retain that really. A lot of those songs originally were me starting my solo album. I convinced Ed that we should send them round to a few people to get a reaction and they all thought it was CHINA CRISIS. I knew nobody was interested in me doing a solo record so that was it. I want the album to get the credit it deserves, the fans absolutely loved it but otherwise, it was like nobody knows about it. Why hasn’t it been reviewed, why hasn’t Mark Phythian won a Grammy for the mix, y’know?
A bouncy little ditty called ‘Everyone You Know’ came from those sessions and was given away free as part of the original Pledge Music crowdfunding campaign, it wasn’t on the CD but was an added bonus on the first vinyl issue of the album, will it remain?
It wasn’t on the original CD because I felt the approach we took on ‘Everyone You Know’ was a bit too poptastic and I was like “Ooooh! Who’s that?” *laughs*
It’s a great song, a Gary and Eddie one because that’s his riff, although I played it. He had that in another tune but he did nothing with it so I started playing it and then the next thing you know, I wrote a song and showed it to Ed, he absolutely loved it.
I made a bit of a mistake, when we put it on the first vinyl, it didn’t seem to fit into the running order. The end of ‘Autumn’ with ‘Wonderful New World’ just seemed correct as its about loss but you’ve got to look forward, it’s beautiful… and then it goes “BANG!” into ‘Everyone You Know’, it’s not f*cking right! So we might think of about maybe changing that running order for this edition. It will be a great one live though, it would suit the CHINA CRISIS synthpop quartet format but it’s a bit of a one that…
2025 also sees you opening for SIMPLE MINDS somewhere in summertime, that’s going to be a nice reunion as they were important early champions of CHINA CRISIS weren’t they? You supported them on the ‘New Gold Dream’ tour…
I’d never seen anything like it. We’d toured with ORANGE JUICE and played little gigs with ALTERED IMAGES and stuff, but when we were with SIMPLE MINDS, they were the hottest f*cking band in the country! Every gig was mobbed, it all had an atmosphere and then the whole place would go mental when they opened with ‘New Gold Dream’! I can imagine for me and Ed, we’re stood there, a couple of nice boys with their nice songs looking at the whole theatre jumping, it was SO electric, it was like F*CKING HELL MAN!
They were so kind to us, they took us on their bus, we stayed in the same hotels and in the US, they were the same… they didn’t have to, they could have insisted we buy onto the tour and we do our own transport. It did help that Bruce Findlay, their manager was about to start managing CHINA CRISIS so he would have told them that we were going to be part of the Schoolhouse Management set-up. But they were like us, working class lads who taught themselves everything they know and we were learning just being with them, experiencing what it was like. They were so self-assured, they’d been doing it for a good while so they were ready and they were great.
It’s a shame about what happened to that line-up of SIMPLE MINDS, oh my god! Mick MacNeil, I’ve never heard a keyboard player like him, the fact that it was all on the Jupiter8 was like WOW! And Derek Forbes, those basslines and Charlie was just like, he was so handsome and his sound was so great, y’know. I originally saw them supporting MAGAZINE at The Empire and then on their own at Eric’s. So me and Ed would have seen them and bought ‘Life In A Day’ and ‘Real To Real Cacophony’. I remember the first song I wrote, I tried to do something like the ‘Life In A Day’ title song.
In 2025, it’s like CHINA CRISIS are playing live everywhere, in the US, Canada, Scandinavia, Germany, Holland, plus dates opening for SIMPLE MINDS and SQUEEZE, how does it feel to be almost busier than back in the day?
I think we’re good at it now, which I don’t think we ever were back then… I mean, if we could have the classic band of Kevin, Gazza and Brain now, we’d be unreal.
We started CHINA CRISIS so we didn’t have to get a job, the jobs they wanted us to have were on an industrial estate or in a factory if you know what I mean. I feel like after 40 years that we’ve made it our job so we are very workman-like, we’re professional about it and we make sure we turn up at the right time, we make sure everybody goes home relatively happy, that kind of thing.
I do love getting to play for people who may never have seen us before. Last year we played Singapore for like only the second time and there’s families there who can’t believe they’ve finally got to see you, their kids listen to your music in the car and on holidays, they’ve come with mum and dad; that’s a really lovely thing, that’s the positive in that we can still do it and still enjoy it. Even when I’m annoyed, I have a laugh, I let the audience know that I’m having to work tonight but guess what? Let’s have a laugh, you have to enjoy your work.
When you’re a creative person, I feel you do need a bit of space, don’t be that person who’s an entertainer for a bit, be another person who plans to go into a studio and plans to get the songs recorded. With it being self-produced and stuff, the amount of energy and effort, you don’t appreciate it when you’re younger but I can tell you ‘Autumn In The Neighbourhood’ was a gargantuan f*cking task of just getting everybody available and everybody paid, all the bills met, keeping the quality control up etc, the level of teamwork you have to inspire in people… you haven’t really got the time and energy for that if you’re out the door every other few days entertaining people. The pro plus is you get to experience it all with everybody and everybody loves it so much including yourselves. We’re a great band at the moment, everybody’s happy and focussed and mostly sober. The only downside is I do feel it encroaches on the creativity being so busy.
It’s funny isn’t it when you’ve achieved so much, even though I don’t think it was a lot… if it was a school report, I would say it was “fair to middling, could have tried harder”. People respond to the hits so much and you’re lucky to have them, but actually it’s a lot of the other songs that I properly enjoy, I really do. Over the last 20 years, me and Ed have not stopped, we’re now in a position where you don’t ever have to stop… if you don’t want to, you can literally carry on. People have connected with us in such a way, they’re quite happy for you to still to keep coming and be around. We were so privileged to be indulged by our families when we were 17-18. And then we were 18-19 when we got signed.
Finally, is there a synth favourite of all time?
That would be the Jupiter 8, that IS ‘Working With Fire & Steel’… the Korg Polysix is ‘Difficult Shapes…’, the DX-7 is ‘Flaunt..’ and Roland D50 was ‘What Price Paradise’, I lose track after that! *laughs*
ELECTRICITYCLUB.CO.UK gives its warmest thanks to Gary Daly
CHINA CRISIS will be performing ‘Flaunt The Imperfection’ for its 40th Anniversary throughout 2025 – for information on these and other 2025 live dates in the UK and internationally, please go to https://linktr.ee/chinacrisismusic
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